Western perception of “Social credit” largely propaganda btw and if you believe it isnt then you got manipulated.
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There are more ‘social scores’ than just the credit one. The main difference is that in the West it’s kept in secret, while China is open about it. Of course, it’s also different than American propaganda says.
Arguments can be made both in favor and against such systems or their parts. I think we can all agree that the American one goes far beyond reasonable social utility. The Chinese one too, probably. China may be a lot better than our media tells us, but it’s still far from perfect.
You say western but I live in the UK and while credit ratings exist here I have never had a reason to care about them. Never even had a credit card. Only time I borrowed money is for my mortgage.
You say western but I live in the UK
You’re fucking with me right? …
Edit: My bad, did not understand the point you were making.
My new response is no shit you don’t gotta worry about credit score if you never owned a credit card lol
Is the UK not considered the West? I don’t understand.
He’s claiming this whole credit problem is US only and not the rest of the West.
Whoops, I misunderstood lol.
Edit
So I helped a friend buy a car many years ago. It’s gone well. But her last payment. She was 50$ short. She gave me a nice credit surprise because she didn’t want to ask me for 50$ on the last payment. My perfect credit got dinged pretty good.
What the fuck is this nonsense?
Nobody likes credit scores but it’s at least marginally financial measurements that are used for financial decisions.
It’s regressive, but only because our society is regressive. A middle class person who overspends and doesn’t pay their bills on time is probably gonna get treated worse than a poor person who needs groceries and fails to pay their grocery bills on time, yes. But it’s still financial.
The poor person isn’t being stopped from buying a train ticket. They might not have money to do so, but that’s a different societal fuck up.
At least compare apples to apples.
“It’s only financial I swear! Please don’t look up the countless studies on racial biases! Please!!”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_credit_scoring_systems_in_the_United_States#Racism
Yikes dude…
Societal outcomes are worse pretty much across the board for all of those groups. See my long middle paragraph about how our whole society is fucked up.
Every item listed on that page is a measurement indicating the end result which is inequality. Nothing on that page covers the why or the how. If Equifax is literally scoring people based on “how black a name sounds” (as with resume studies) then sure the actual scoring system is also broken. But it doesn’t say that, it says outcomes are worse and unequal. Just like every other outcome in this country.
Wow, you should have let those scientists know about that so they wouldn’t have wasted their time with these studies.
Great analysis dude.
I know you’re pissed at me but that was kinda weak. I don’t think there’s anything unreasonable about saying our society is fucked up but a very different style of fucked up vs china.
Especially considering that china sorta looked at the most fucked up parts of the credit score system and deliberately said “I want that, but more invasive and with the government running it” something like half a century later.
From what I’ve seen Dogbert is really obsessed with the Chinese state to the point of ignoring the fundamental structural issues it has. Is the Chinese state better for the average citizen than the US, probably in a lot of metrics, but as everywhere it is heavily dependent on who you are and where you live.
I’ve done some reflashing of cellular modems and the best place for open source modem firmware I found was some Chinese language hacker communities and they didn’t seem jazzed about the hoops they had to jump through to get to the clear net just to collaborate with the rest of the world. When information is restricted to that extent it is symptomatic of an extremely adversarial relationship between the government and its citizens.
What authoritarians of any stripe don’t realize that by abdicating their autonomy to any state, no matter the color of the flag or what ideology it espouses, ends in one way repression and death. If there is an out group there is a high likely hood that even a true believer will find themselves in it at some point. There is a tendency for authoritarian structures like states and corps to justify their existence through a progress at any cost mentality. This is true for western capitalism as well as Soviet and Chinese implementations of socialism. Any cost may be Lake Karachay’s ecosystem or the cultural extinction and enslavement of native people who live on land rich in rare earth minerals, it also means any citizen who becomes inconvenient to the state.
excellent write up! summarizes exactly how i feel and the issues i’ve had around here lately
You and I have disagreed on other things occasionally.
But a bunch of downvotes for someone pointing out the shitty idea behind credit scores, and an upvoted brand new account justifying them… how curious.
The Chinese social credit thing is a myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
Not to say credit scores are fun, but comparing the two is kinda absurd. Credit scores are calculated by private companies and used by banks to determine your eligibility for a loan. Essentially, it’s an averaged history of how good you are at repaying debt, and it’s used to determine if you will repay future debt. The people who calculate your score have no interest in how it affects you. The social credit system is a government score and has tons of things that can affect it, and there’s plenty of opportunity for fudgery to screw you over. There are tons of ways in can negatively affect you. Worst of all, it can be used to deny international flights, and in effect your ability to escape the system. Since this is actually run by the government, it creates an avenue for punishing political dissent and control that just doesn’t exist with credit scores.
The US has both:
The Chinese Social Credit score is where your Facebook and other social media are scoured by HR before you are hired. But if you are rich, your Facebook posts don’t matter because your Dad made you an executive the company.
A Credit Score is pure capitalism. You can be a racist asshole and get the best deal from banks because you have money.
China is no different with their Princeling “Fuerdai”.
Two things can be bad at the same time.
Yes that seems to be the point of the post
Not if you look at OP’s other comments.
Nope, that’s literally the point of the post.
Oh, then you’re just not very good at conveying that it seems
I didn’t make the meme believe it or not.
“I didn’t make it, I just posted it and added a comment and everyone is misinterpreting it and reading into it”
Cool story.
Social credit in China is […] Something that is a great benefit to their citizens.
Something someone who doesn’t condone a system apparently says. /s
This thought-terminating cliche is getting so tired. You may as well just say “let’s just agree to disagree”.
It’s telling that this cliche is most often applied when western whataboutism is correctly called out, and all it does is serve to legitimize the act of manufacturing consent against China.
USA invents credit score way back in the 50s
credit score is immediately used to pull off the most calculatingly misogynistic, racist, and classist financial enforcement in modern history.
china implements a technically similar system that aims not to control working people’s financial agency, but to strengthen public trust.
the west immediately spins up the presses and releases dozens of hit pieces a year that manufacture consent against China by portraying the Chinese social credit system as an orwellian nightmare that will rip a child out of their parent’s home if the household spends too much time on videos games.
leftists identify this whataboutism and correctly call it out
liberals drop one of their various thought-terminating cliches to (not so) subtly bolster the western narrative - thus manufacturing consent against China.
You’ve been effortlessly oriented by the State Department and its various propaganda apparatus.
If you believe China’s social credit system is a good way to “strengthen public trust” then I want to know how you feel about people like Xu Xiaodong, whose social credit was destroyed for exposing fake martial artists and refusing to apologize to them.
How is it thought terminating to consider two different things bad at the same time?
because you don’t actually consider them; you just assume they are
Not necessarily. You can consider two things and decide that none of them are good. You don’t know how much I considered both systems. You’re just guessing and are mad that I don’ share your opinion.
yeah, you’re right, i was assuming too :)
I really don’t know what you are trying to say here
Brother i don’t want to live in a country that scores my social media nor one that scores my credit. I have the right to not want either of those things
…
I’m still going to engage with you despite you not engaging with any part of my comment…
i don’t want to live in a country that scores [me]. I have the right to not want [that].
You sure do have that right. Your right to not want that is just dandy. However, Chinese people, by and large, do support their implementation of the social credit system. The Chinese people are developing their vision of socialism. For you to personally not like certain features of Chinese socialism is fine and dandy. But to condemn the Chinese for some aspect of their development of socialism that enjoys high support is chauvinistic of you.
Since when does having a “good behaviour score” have anything to do with socialism? Seriously wtf is this revisionism? It’s gotten so bad that so called “Marxists” accept any nonsense as long as it has a hammer and sickle on its flag.
What is wrong with you people? Does anyone even read anymore?
You’ve been effortlessly oriented by the State Department and its various propaganda apparatus.
Can you explain to me, how I’m propagandized by a foreign government when I’m not cheering on the policies of their opponent?
I’m not taking any sides on this conflict, because it’s not my conflict. I’m a socialist… Let me assure you that my fundamental critique of the chinese state apparatus doesn’t really align too much with the US state propaganda.
oriented
I see what you did there.
The former is a voluntary system, the latter can make you homeless.
Both are technocratic systems of control.
It doesn’t say it’s voluntary, it says there were voluntary pilot programs within the larger initiative, which, as far as I can tell, is not voluntary.
Also, there can be harsh penalties including being put on blacklists that prevent you from traveling or your children from receiving education.
Fucking tankies man
I don’t think many people in the West like credit score system either tbh
Since this is an anarchist instance, I was willing to give OP the benefit of a doubt that this is against states in general but, alas, reading their comments it is whataboutism
In another thread they were praising Stalin so I don’t think they deserve benefit of the doubt.
i’m getting close to blocking. their behavior i feel violates rule 6 (or 7 i can’t see the sidebar on mobile) that users of this community should not deify past socialist experience. they have demonstrated a pattern of behavior that strongly favors imperialism with a veneer of leftist aesthetic. the mods ignoring this pattern in the face of reports has left a really bad taste in my mouth that’s been slowly driving me away from dbzer0 and anarchist.nexus, two of my former favorite instances aside from my own here at slrpnk.net.
totalitarian authoritarian regimes are what socialism and communism are meant to be an alternative to, not something we should celebrate as long as they wear a red coat of paint. it’s been very dissapointing as the rules of this communicate that this is supposed to be a generally left comm but more and more it’s just !memes@lemmy.ml but on another instance
Yes I do feel leftymemes @ dbzer0 unfortunately has a sizeable ML influence.
The main mod of this community actually does some soviet union apologia I think. Which means the rules 6 basically isnt followed while they’re in charge.
It’s really only 2 or 3 users (who I think are mods or admins) that are pushing the tankie trash.
db0 the admin seems alright, so I’m not sure why they allow this behavior here.
Keep in mind, nobody has been able to cite a single comment of mine that has “deified” anything. I have never praised Stalin (go check my comment history), however I have merely pointed out the success of the USSR. Big fucking deal lol.
Honesty hilarious and ironic to see this level of panic and censorship over a mere difference of opinion, while crying about the authoritarianism of China and Stalin.
Pretty embarrassing for you guys.
I have never praised Stalin (go check my comment history)
You heard it folks. Saying that Stalin was a communist is now “praise”. Great work fella 🤣
Feel free to respond to my comments if you wanna argue against them. Not sure why you’re hiding over here lol.
Oh no, you found me! I wasn’t hiding good enough apparently. In fact I wasn’t hiding at all lol. I just commented unter a top level comment that seemed topical. Hiding would maybe be posting a screenshot somewhere else.
And no, I’m not going to argue. Arguments with tankies don’t really lead anywhere. See this as a win, I don’t care
Lot of people defending it though
“It’s not that bad 700 score is easy to get”
I defaulted on a loan and my credit score dropped down to 500. Still being chased by the debt collectors a year later and it’s gone back up to 700 by itself. I have no credit cards or anything. The whole thing is a joke.
I haven’t seen that online tbh
I’ve heard it enough in person
“Just do a bank credit program. You give them $500 you don’t have and…” Fuck off
That sounds more like people coping with the system than endorcing it. “It is what it is” of course is counterproductive to dismantling it.
“There has been a widespread misconception that China operates a nationwide and unitary social credit “score” based on individuals’ behavior, leading to punishments if the score is too low. Media reports in the West have sometimes exaggerated or inaccurately described this concept. It issued guidelines clarifying that citizens could not be punished for having low scores”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
Social credit in China is more about gauging trustworthiness of business entities. Something that is a great benefit to their citizens.
That may be the case but you people have to stop trying to defend China all the time. You can’t even search the word “democracy” without being added to a list.
Ah yeah, because the five eyes (of which the UK is a member) doesn’t flag people and add them to watchlists for comments potentially like this one
I am currently reading a book (Leadership and the Rise of Great Powers) by a CCP member and he talks about:
- The merits of Democracy
- Tienamen Square
- A better leadership style for China than what they have
So you can talk about these things, but what isn’t allowed is being inflammatory.
Uh, that’s not exactly exonerating material. Any government that would restrict Or crack down on those who would tell their government to go fuck itself. Can go fuck itself.
By all means, if we are discussing, removing rights from an individual or a group, be dispassionate and fact-based all day every day. But if we are telling the victims of abuse that their complaints are invalid or illegal because they feel emotion from the damage done to them. Fuck that shit.
Being inflammatory is not the same as someone complaining about an unjust government nor is it the same as feeling bad about something. It is a rhetorical strategy that is not suited for bridging misunderstandings and that is why such content gets removed from their platforms.
This reads like someone who can’t fathom that some people genuinely do like China and think it’s doing a good job. It always comes back to Western chauvinism where we think that our values like liberal capitalism and bourgeois democracy are inherently superior to the values held by most people in the global south. Maybe they don’t always want what we want.
Too much criticism of China is based on falsehoods and deliberate misrepresentation of certain aspects of Chinese society, culture, and politics. Case in point: the social credit system. Criticism is fine if it’s fair and based on facts.
That’s all well and good. The problem comes when either one tries to criticize the other. It’s hypocrisy. Always resulting in whataboutism as justification.
Without press freedom or freedom of speech as well. It is impossible to say whether China or any country is doing well or right by its people. And it is an excellent metric to look at and judge the United States decline by as well. If you wouldn’t trust a police department to investigate the abuse and brutality perpetrated by them. Or take Pete Haggseth at his word about those innocent fishermen he killed. But you accept the narrative of the CCP. That’s willful hypocrisy.
Is what gets reported about a lot in Western-free press concerning China, sometimes false? Sure. Is it all false? Certainly not. It’s just a shame there is no independent free press in China to actually get the facts out. But plenty of the CCPs verifiable abuse gets handwaved away. Concerning uhygers and other non ethnic minorities. Especially when we can point to real named victims.
Such as the case of Naomi Wu. If you have been in the maker space/3d printing over the last decade. You had likely at least heard of her if not met her. She was a wonderful window into the local culture of shenzhen. A great citizen ambassador for China. And international brand ambassador for creality. Often getting their newest products to demonstrate and display. Till that day. The day she dared put up a personal video. Discussing how she’d suffered because of the CCPs one child policy. And how she and her partner. A uhyger were managing with the restrictions placed on them as an ethnic minority. It was a great and informative video. That didn’t even paint the CCP in that bad of a light. But it didn’t keep representatives of the CCP from beating down her door. Threatening her livelihood and life convincingly enough that she cut off all international presence and contact. Those aren’t the actions of a good or benevolent government.
Interesting, where are you citing from?
They were never heard from again lol 🤣
I’m pretty sure Trump will put you on a list for searching that too
Did anyone say USA is not a shithole?
It’s usually directly implied that America doesn’t have the same level of censorship. So when it comes to searching the term “democracy” the poster was very clearly implying you do not get put on lists for simple searches in America. Perhaps they didn’t mean to do so but this is very typical
The two countries of the world, China and USA
There’s more to the world than USA and China. Europe for example.
more importantly the entire global south that the three major empires of the usa, china, and russia exploit
Agreed
Two words for Europe: Chat Control.
Ah yes Europe where you totally won’t get put on a list or driven out from a country like France for making a secure android rom
damn, i gotta steal that meme. it applies waaay too often.
It sounds like it was the sort of horrid “good citizen” system in pilot cities until it was stopped
In 2019, the central government voiced dissatisfaction with pilot cities experimenting with social credit scores. It issued guidelines clarifying that citizens could not be punished for having low scores and that punishments should only be limited to legally defined crimes and civil infractions. As a result, pilot cities either discontinued their point-based systems or restricted them to voluntary participation with no major consequences for having low scores.
It issued guidelines clarifying that citizens could not be punished for having low scores
Somehow, I don’t think tankies will be crediting the PRC for stopping this silly system before it got out of hand any time soon.
Yes they are. Moron take.
Please argue how. As someone from a country where credit scores aren’t a thing, they really look the same.
